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Autopilot of model planes

 
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hgrueneis

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Joined: 04 Apr 2009
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Location: A-4786 Brunnenthal

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Autopilot of model planes Reply with quote

Just a word to those who want to do that in the USA.
Autopilot for remotely controlled flying objects (RC models) for private people is by law not allowed. See FAA regulations.
There are also issues with the licensing of the radio equipment.
In a case like this, inform yourself before you get into any trouble.
If you are for example an AMA member, then you should know.
The consequences can be very serious.
I do not know about the situation in the EU, but imagine that it would be similar.
Have fun
Hubert
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pseddon

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot of model planes Reply with quote

hgrueneis wrote:
Just a word to those who want to do that in the USA.
Autopilot for remotely controlled flying objects (RC models) for private people is by law not allowed. See FAA regulations.
There are also issues with the licensing of the radio equipment.
In a case like this, inform yourself before you get into any trouble.
If you are for example an AMA member, then you should know.
The consequences can be very serious.
I do not know about the situation in the EU, but imagine that it would be similar.
Have fun
Hubert


I don't think you are correct there judging by the amount of activity on the topic of Autopilots on DIYDrones.com and RCGroups.com, and the numbers that are flying with them. Products such as Attopilot and many others are for sale and being used in the US and other countries.

You are correct that there are rules about their use.

regards Peter
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hgrueneis

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following quote from the FAA:
"Recreational use of the NAS is generally limited to operations to below 400 feet above ground level and away from airports and air traffic.

There are two acceptable means of operating UAS in the NAS outside of “restricted” airspace: a Special Airworthiness Certificate — Experimental Category or a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization (COA).

A Special Airworthiness Certificate in the Experimental Category is the only certification available to civil operators of UAS. Due to regulatory requirements, this approval precludes carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, but does allow operations for research and development, market survey, and crew training."
Have fun
Hubert
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hgrueneis

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.
I forgot to add:
All model airfields with AMA sanctions do not allow auto pilot controlled models.
The AMA only allows corrective devices for eyes (glasses).
So, even remote manual control with the aid of video or GPS would not be allowed at AMA sanctioned air fiels.
Insurance is an other matter.
Hubert
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Kiedro

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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 81

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: legal issues Reply with quote

I guess that only a lawyer specialized in this field can arrive at a competent answer on the legal aspects, at least I am overasked. As a member of the DMFV in Germany which is the largest non-profit organization for RC-aeromodelling here, I can just repeat what the DMFV justitiar has stated on this issue: Aeromodellers using an autopilot in their vehicle have
(a) to obey visual flight rules (prohibiting to look at the computer screen instead of observing it in the air),
(b) to make sure that they can regain manual flight control at any time,
(c) to obey all other regulations existent for RC-flight (e.g. keeping away from regular airfields 20 km at least).

The AR7212 is primarily a receiver programmable via a PC, the autopilot extension is not meant as an instrument for "drone wars" etc. It is meant as a safety option to help the RC pilot in critical situations. Every RC-Pilot knows what I mean.
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Kiedro

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hgrueneis wrote:
P.S.
I forgot to add:
All model airfields with AMA sanctions do not allow auto pilot controlled models.
The AMA only allows corrective devices for eyes (glasses).
So, even remote manual control with the aid of video or GPS would not be allowed at AMA sanctioned air fiels.
Insurance is an other matter.
Hubert


It looks that Hubert's opinion wins significance in the US most recently:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10358481/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
I can imagine however that those speaking for AMA take a rather conservative approach just focussing on the potential threat by UAVs in the context of terrorism. They overlook that aeromodelling has a very long history, that insights by early aeromodellers pushed the development of "real flight", that the typical aeromodeller is as far away from a terrorist as the typical user of a sports weapon is from a professional killer. They also forget that the developments discussed in this forum and others aim to improve the safety of RC flight.

Natalius
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hgrueneis

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiedro,
sorry, I have not read this part of the forum in quite a while.

You seem to think that the quotes I posted are my opinions.
Maybe you should read thru again. The fact that I quoted it does not mean that it is my opinion!
Germany is a different matter, I was writing about the USA and AMA sanctioned model airfields (see AMA rules).
If anybody rather flies without insurance and not within the law, that is their problem.
If a law is not enforced, that does not mean that it does not exist.
I have been at a commercially operated model airshow in Germany and if the existing law would have been enforced, the show would have not continued. It rather seems to be a "don't ask don't tell" situation.
See minimum insurance requirement for commercial model aircraft in Germany and EU.
By the way, it is not an overwhelming accomplishment to implement an auto pilot even with auto landing and automatic flight route control.
Maybe this is the reason why the Government wants to restrict that.
Maybe there are too many LOONIES out there.
If the Government thinks that it is time to limit these applications then there is probably a good reason for it.
There have been collisions of model planes with full size planes.
Since you mention weapons.
Just the fact that you don't want to do any harm does not give you the right in Germany to carry a gun.
I suggest you inform yourself about your country first before you make assumptions about any other.
This is not in the scope of the forum. In the future do not connect my name to opinions I do not share!
Hubert
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Kiedro

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hubert,
let me apologize for the case that I misunderstood you. And let us agree that it doesn't help the readers to discuss AMA's position in relationship to your own point of view. I am grateful that you communicated the official position of AMA and what I wanted to express by pointing to a discussion is that things may become more complicated in the future.
To my best knowledge, a member of an "official" shooting club (a legal entity in accordance to German "Vereinsrecht") is entitled to carry his (licenced) gun around in a closed (key-locked) container.
Natalius
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Kiedro

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS: Let us finish the discussion on this topic here - or - discuss it privately.
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hgrueneis

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What more is there to discuss? Discussing laws is not going to alter them. Maybe I did not express myself clearly enough.
I quoted some laws, rules and regulations which apply for the USA,
AMA rules for airfields that are sanctioned by them. As much as I am aware, I did not attack or offend anybody.
My point was also that if anybody does not follow these rules of AMA as a member,
then there might be a conflict with the insurance in case of an accident and or other conflicts.
Further very dramatic conflicts may arise if any person does not respect any existing laws
that are here to protect secure civilian and military air traffic.
I am not for total restriction of model flight but I am respecting these rules and regulations.
Just recently the fine for pointing a laser at an aircraft may result in a fine of $11000.-USD.
A law is in the works, if anybody interferes with aircraft it will add up to five (5) years in federal prison.
It seems that you promote a double standard.
In one way "this is going out to be read all over the world", but you do not mention
in any way that "such a device may be illegal in your country of residence"!
The fact that there are a lot of people (like mentioned in the previous post about commercial events)
also in Germany who are not following the rules does not sanction such behavior.
If you animate people to do something then you should also be willing to bear the consequences.
You seem to behave like the driver in the car behind that wants everybody to go faster than the speed limit
but is not willing to pay the fine. In my opinion (since you want to know), it is irresponsible
to assist people who would otherwise not be able to accomplish a project of a serious potential danger
to the public. You might as well post a program and hardware for missile cruise control.
If you do not live by the law, that is your problem, not mine.
Good intentions do not negate laws.
I have nothing further to add to this subject and certainly not in private either
but I am surprised that this forum is even promoting questionable projects in today's times.
It seems that a moderator can say or post anything and it is not a problem,
regular members have to stick to the good manners code!
Hubert
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albertsm

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Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Holland

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This IS a moderated forum : all MCS forums are moderated in some form.
I will write a private email.

To the other users : some projects might not be safe to use, like a light dimmer could give you a shock.
Or a timer project connected to a mine detonator, could go off early : as a user you are responsible for the safety of you and others around you.
The forums are for technical projects, even if you want to make a nuclear plant controlled by bascom, it is ok. The laws and rules are different in all countries. You must follow the laws in our country.
Or at least you are responsible for that.

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Mark
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