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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay folks,
thanks for your attention en info.

Yes indeed, a flipflop for each relais will do the job, i think.
Bistable relais will be simpler, but i do not know if there are bistable relais for high power.
Because this tuner setup is just a test to get used to the problems .
When this test is okay, i will build a tuner for about 4 KWatt.
My licence has a max of 400 Watt, but with some antenna's the voltage or current will be
terribly high. My goal is to be able to use every kind of antenna without any problems.

In Ham radio, this kind of tuners are not available. Militairy ships does have them, but
they are above my budget.....

So first i will try to find a solution for the noise problem.

for general info: the receiver has its own power supply and stands 5 meter away of the AVR.
The AVR and the relais has one 24 Volt power supply. from which i made also the 5 Volt for
the AVR itself.

Well, today an other day of testing.

I am very greatfull for your help!!!

73
Wim PA0SLT
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SZTRAD

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Joined: 30 Dec 2019
Posts: 132

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to draw by hand how to control those relays. Feel free to involve one output so that we are in the picture
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SZTRAD,
My bascom program works very nice... the problem is only the noise when i go receiving
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MWS

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Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 1985

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wimapon wrote:
So first i will try to find a solution for the noise problem.

How many relays do you use?
Is the combination photocoupler, separated ground plane and two PSUs, one for the AVR, one for the relay-unit an option?
A separated ground plane would be the most important measure imho.

You can even 'split' photocouplers and keep the noisy AVR-part and relay/antenna-unit separated by a few meters. if you replace the couplers by TOSLINK-fiber, sending- and receiving-diodes.

This would increase material-costs, but with such a setup you don't even have to worry about, whether the AVR plays some happy tunes, is in sleep or power-off.
Tesla-coils are controlled this way, may come handy too in this case.
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi MWA,
i do use 24 relais, but in de definitive version it will be some more.

I think your info will be too much, too complicated. It must be possible
to do this simple....

the flipflop methode will be reasonable simple.
than comes the next question: with which command can i completely
shut down the AVR.... So that i have to start it again with first
power off and than switch power on again.?
Point is , this tuning unit comes 150 m. from my house.
When it works nice, i will never touch it again..... hi hi

there is an other possible noice source.. the transisitors that go to the
relais... ( because the AVR can nog deliver anough current for the relais)
I will look for this to day.
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh oh i have a terrible problem:
If i disconnect the power for the AVR and the display.
and i give 24 volt to a relais.....i get noise....
Not with every relais.. but some relais.

So the noise does not come from the AVR but from something else.....

this is unbelievable.

so first i have to find what is happening...


i will keep you informed here...

Wim
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SZTRAD

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Joined: 30 Dec 2019
Posts: 132

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I wanted to see the performance part involved.
I did not ask about the program but about the method of connection. Relays with high coil resistance are quite often a source of large interference.
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MWS

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Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 1985

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wimapon wrote:
I think your info will be too much, too complicated. It must be possible
to do this simple....

My part is to provide the idea, while yours is to sort it out.
I did notice you got other problems right now, but to answer your question:
Quote:
So that i have to start it again with first power off and than switch power on again.?

Powerdown is the maximum of internal units to shut off which you can get here.
A power toggle will restart the controller and pulls it out of sleep, other methods to wake up do exist also.
Quote:
Point is , this tuning unit comes 150 m. from my house.

Toggling power's advantage is: everytime you get a freshly started controller, you don't need recover-options like a watchdog then.
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SZTRAD,
what do you mean by a "performance chart"?
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Paulvk

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Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 1216
Location: SYDNEY

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noisy relays !
Have you put diodes across the coils ?
Have you also put 100nF capacitors across the coils.
Relay contacts can be a source of noise.

Can you publish your project for others there is is project section in the forum.

Regards Paul vk2pl
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MWS

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Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 1985

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wimapon wrote:
what do you mean by a "performance chart"?

He wrote 'part', not 'chart' and very likely he mentions executing hardware, aka drivers, relays, everything uC-external.
Basically he asked the same point which I've suggested earlier: keep the uC in Reset, but power on a few relays, only then it's possible to differentiate who's the culprit.
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SZTRAD

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Joined: 30 Dec 2019
Posts: 132

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I understood correctly you will switch great powers. They redraw the connection of the relay and imagine it as a transformer. The contacts have their internal resistance so you will have one winding the relay coil is the other winding. You have to compensate for what is induced in your winding. If you transmit power to the antenna, a relatively oscillating current through the contact will return to you. Well, you have such a small switching power supply.
These effects must be blocked. It is necessary to put a blocking diode for the coil, as MWS writes (it is there due to the opening and the peak of the opposite voltage arising when the coil is disconnected from the power supply). It is necessary to strictly block the power supply and switching transistors for each coil.
It is bad advice when one does not see the wiring diagram and that is what needs to be seen. In the case of switching large powers for HF technology, you also need to see the PCB, etc. Sorry if I touch you now, but here you need to forget about universal diagrams from Arduino and other simple projects.
RS
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, MWS, Paulvk, O-Family, SZTRAD,

i found the noise problem. It did not come from the avr and the tuner.
Now i do know it, it looks very stupid.
Between the small wire antenna and the line to the receiver is large coil. The relais switch some points of this coil short-circuited. So it grows larger or smaller.
When no relais is on, the coil is maximal. That blocks the noise from the antenna to the receiver.
When i activate a relais, this coil is much smaller, so the noise from the antenna can go to the receiver.
So when the automatic tuning process stops, there is always one relais activated, so the coil is smaller .
So i do receive noise.
When i put the avr in programming mode, all relais switch off... so the coil is maximum.
So there come no noise to the receiver....
I found this by switching all electronics off and took a wire to do the the same what a relais does...
and without wire connection there was no noise, and with the wire there comes the noise.
So the noise did not come from the electronics,,, but from the antenna.
This small antenna is in my radio-room. In this room are led-TL-lamps.... this lamps gives a lot of noise....

I hope i explained it right... sorry my English is very bad.

Anyhow, i do know now how to switch the AVR off and what are the consequences of that.

Now i will go on with all other problems of this antenna tuner, like ( as you mentioned) large current,
largs voltages, big relais, switching times and an effecient bascom program.
Hopefully there will not come smoke out of this tuner in the future.
Because you know: electronics is made of smoke.. When the smoke is out of the apparatus, the apparatus
is dead.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.
i am very greatfull.
(if you like to see what kind of experiments i like to do... see my site: www.ebl21.nl )

Wim PA0SLT
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SZTRAD

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Joined: 30 Dec 2019
Posts: 132

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, only locals will probably read this. Google translator broke his teeth Smile
Don't make any of it Czech language is the same.
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wimapon

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Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Meedhuizen

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am sorry,... the radio astronomy item is in english
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